Family. It's time for a true look at your world. Let's get hooked up for Pack Therapy. Here's your host, Tim Donnelly and Graham Hill. Welcome to another edition of the Pack Therapy podcast. I'm Tim Donnelly alongside Graham Hill. Yes. Should we start with tears? How, how does this work? Maybe I might edit in a simple minds. Don't forget about me and insert an image. We should have inserted an image of DJ burns walking through the brick yard with a fist up or maybe the boom box on his shoulder. The boom box would have been nice and just the fade out and, you know, for a total eclipse coming, we could have just automatically had the blackout total eclipse of the heart maybe. Uh So here's the deal. Everybody. Uh We've been on this magical run for the last month and, and we've had the privilege of covering it, the players. I'm sure enjoyed it. The fans, I'm sure enjoyed it. Uh But, but it's, it's over now. All right. See you guys. It's been been real. No. Uh You know, to me, we can use all the cliches I saw Graham posted on Twitter that it, it's a, don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened moment you can throw all good things must come to an end. You can, like, you can throw all of the cliches out there. The fact of the matter is there's not, there's only one team, every NCAA tournament that gets to end on a victory, uh, and, and state and I believe everyone kind of has this kind of, uh, a awareness. Uh I mean, it had seven victories that felt like something special and, and that's probably more than anyone else in, in, in the country. The Louisville and Syracuse wins kind of felt, uh expected everything after that. You know, it, it was, it was house money and it was, it was gravy, it was icing and, and these players took an entire kind of uh community on a ride and yeah, it ended one game before you'd like it to two wins before you, you'd like it to in a perfect world. But, you know, beggars can't be choosers if there's not a single person amongst us that wouldn't have signed up for a final four when you were in the middle of losing your last four regular season games. There's really nothing to be upset about if you're an NC State fan because the team just overachieve, you know, let's just call it point blank, let's say it how it is. And really the only thing that you could be upset about is that it is over. I mean, you could be upset about the, the shooting performances and playing Purdue, but that's just kind of what you get when you go up against a powerhouse like Zach and that team. But I did use the phrase, you know, the term don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened has never been more true for NC State fans. And I think part of that is true. There's nothing to be ashamed about if you're, if you're a Wolf Pack fan and if anything, and there's just, there's just more reflection and celebration for what the team was able to accomplish watching the game. And, you know, I like to use the, the, you know, kind of the, the not super fan test, watch the, watch the game with someone that hasn't watched every minute of NC State basketball this year. Uh, I've said how fun it's been over the last month to watch the nation, get to know who DJ burns is and have them go, like, how do you stop this guy? And I'm going, like, I know we've been watching it all year. We've been saying the same thing two years. Um, so I was watching the, the final four with, with my wife and there were a few times, you know, and, and she, she played college field hockey. She's an athlete. But granted sometimes when I'm watching, you know, the fourth college basketball game of the weekend, she's like, you know what, I'm, I'm gonna go watch something else in the other room. Uh, she, she said they look tired just a few times. She went over and went, oh, he's exhausted and I get it right. I, it's, it was the first time during this whole run I looked at it and I kind of went, yeah. You know what they do and, and that doesn't mean they weren't trying hard. It doesn't mean they weren't trying, giving all their effort. It was just a few times in that game where you look at them and you went, I kind of expected this to happen in the fourth game of the AC C championship. They, they managed to hold it off for this many games. But I do think the emotional, the mental, the, the fatigue of this run finally caught up with them and they were gonna have to be the annoying over energy pest if they were going to beat Purdue. Purdue had size. Purdue had, you know, a little bit of experience. They had some, some guys that could really shoot, didn't do it, didn't, didn't do everything that they hoped on offense, but for, for state to pull off that game, they were going to need to be, you know, wall to wall wire to wire all the energy in the world. And it just, it looked like finally that they had played that many win or go home games in the last you know, three weeks. Another thing that I kind of wrote down or jotted down as a mental note is that they kind of what we've been talking about started to hurt themselves a little bit. They had the mental lapses for the first time in the NCAA tournament. I take just a minute to the game. DJ. Burns picking up his first foul as he's running as he's, as he's running back on defense and transition and then just some of the shot selections that they took, they had done such a good job at really moving the ball around the perimeter and holding out and getting an extra pass in to set up for a great shot. So many times when NC State was able to finally get a rebound or when Perdue did turn the ball over, I, I couldn't understand when you had Zach all the way down on one end of the court. Why you just didn't go to the, why you just didn't take it to the rim instead of pulling up for a three point shot that ultimately led to a one and done possession on offense. It's here, here's my thing. Um The difference between those being electric energy producing plays and being exactly what you said like kind of those head scratchers is making it or missing it. Right. To me, the, the for lack of a better term, the magic ran out, right? Iii I talked with Clark Kellogg who you've seen throughout the, uh, the entire, uh, tournament on, on, uh, TV, with, with Charles Barkley and Kenny and Ernie and those guys. And when we were talking about this game, we were doing this on, on my afternoon show. Uh, the argument for state was the magic, right? Because I said, all right, these two goliaths down low who has the advantage? He was like, Zach, I was like, all right, the perimeter players who has, he's like, Perdue. I was like, ok, wait a second. If, if Perdue has the advantage in this and that and the other and all this and the, they're a one seed and they have the player of the year and all. Well, the argument for NC State is it just like they've been magical and he was kind of like, yeah, like that's March madness. The argument is they've been magical, which leads me to the very first moment I went, uh oh, right. It's, it's the moment in, in the, the superhero movie where kryptonite is around and it's like he goes to shoot his laser beams and they don't shoot. It was uh early in the game, KC Morsel. Uh the, the beautiful, do everything. The right guy do everything the right way guy that he is, uh, there's a turnover, there's a fast break and Morsel doesn't give up on the play. Right. True NC State. Fashion, true. Everything this run is about fashion flies back on defense blocks the shot at the rim and, and it's like there it is. That's, that's the thing. Right. This team doesn't give up. Not seven seconds later it works into a rotation. Three. Perdue, knocks down a three and all you learn is that great effort, that great energy, that great play, that stick to it. Attitude. That determination turned a two point bucket into a three point bucket for, for Perdue. And I went, oh no, because those were the plays that not only would like along this run would state get the ball and it would probably be a bucket on the other end, but it, it ignited everything right there. There were two or three moments that felt like do or die moments and I'm like, somebody's got to ignite NC State and, and DJ Horn would hit a, hit, a, hit a basket or it would, would make a tough long two. And I'm like, all right there. It is only to be matched by a Purdue three and Purdue wasn't playing great offensively. And each time that happened it felt the air get sucked out of this run just a little bit. It, it, it, no one can explain March madness. I can't explain to you what happened, you know, halfway through that Louisville game at the beginning of the AC C tournament that turned State into one of the best teams in the country. I don't even think if you really like truth serum, the players, they'd be able to say like, well, this is what happened for the same reason. I don't know what happened in, in that Purdue game, but some of that magic was lost. Not an effort thing, not an energy thing, not a preparation thing. It was just that special sauce wasn't there. Uh When you bring up Casey Marcel, I think of another play that was kind of a take the air out of the arena type moment in the game for state fans. And it's when Casey Marcel airballed that three pointer again, another shot that should he have taken. Heck yeah, wide open. He's a good three point shooter. Like, like the result can't dictate the decision. I want him taking that shot every time and guess what if, if you play that game, you know, 10 times, I think he makes that shot six or seven of them like a wide open three point shooter. He's been, he hasn't been shooting like he did last year, but he's still a really good three point shooter. Like the fact that it was an air ball did take the air out of it. I hope, you know, if he's given that shot wherever he's playing next year, G league, uh overseas pickup, I don't NBA, I have no idea what his pro prospects are gonna look like. I hope every time that guy has that open shot in a clutch moment, he takes it because he I think he makes it more often than he doesn't. I think he airballs at probably one out of every 50. And it just luck of the draw that came up in a big moment. The other part of that and III, I agree with you with that statement is that, I think it goes back to what kind of keeps said in the postgame press conference. The biggest difference in the game was that shots that they were usually hitting throughout the NCAA tournament. They just weren't hitting in that game. And, and the other thing is Zach Edie, you know, I thought it was, it was actually, you know, I joke about two grizzly bears fighting over a salmon on National Geographic, uh, Edie and Burns was the first time like burns was lowering his shoulder and they weren't moving right if, if they made contact, you know, 18 ft from the bucket, boom, they're still 18 ft from the bucket up until that moment. Every time I've seen DJ Burns lower his shoulder, if they're, if they're making contact 18 ft from the bucket, by the time their feet start to stop shuffling, they're 15 ft feet from the bucket and then he does it again and they're 12 ft from the bucket. Uh, and the same was true on the other end. I actually, one of the things that really impressed me about Edie was DJ, Burns wasn't moving and, and you know what else? Shout out to DJ burns the first five minutes best defense I've seen him play in a long time. He w he knew going into that game there's only one person that can physically match up with, with Edie in any form or fashion and it was him. So, so he was guarding Edie and again, just boom, boom and, and stalemate. Now, Edie, again, credit to him, found other ways to score and work the hook shots and all these other things. But uh but I think the bigger part of it was, was the NC State for the first time in a long time through Middlebrooks. Diarra and Burns didn't have a huge advantage down low. I think that the three of them um combined to, to score like 12 points. Are you talking about Middle Brooks? Uh Diarra MC uh combined for four points in the game and DJ Burns finished with eight points, so 12 points total. And, and I don't necessarily think any of them played a horrendous offensive game. I don't think they were missing a bunch of shots. They normally make. It's, it's just you, sometimes you have to give credit to the other guy. D won the big man battle and guess what? He's a national player of the year like he's gonna win the big man battle a lot. Uh Burns was gonna have to be special. He was gonna have to get a little lucky he was gonna have to have that magic and, and it wasn't there. I was impressed by Ben Middlebrooks when he was going on defense when he was going, when DJ Burns had to take a breather. Uh Zach Edie, uh turned the ball over five times. I know some listeners might be thinking green. That's not a lot. It is when his combined total for his uh first four NCAA tournament games was four turnovers, one turnover a game. And so Ben Middle just got in there and did the scrappiness and just had the grittiness that was needed to kind of disrupt Zach a little bit. But again, there's a reason why he's, uh, was it Naismith? He just won the award yesterday. Uh, actually, I, I mean, I, I, he won one last year. Uh, that's what I've been referring to. But, uh, besides the point, there's a reason Zack was able to find his rhythm was able to get back into and was pretty much just able to be dominant for Purdue like he usually is. Yes, he did one by the way back to back. So, uh, the, the Naismith men's college basketball player of the year for the second straight year that, that you're gonna have to play well and, and actually, no, I'm, I'm gonna take that back. They did play well. They held Perdue, particularly on defense through the things we've talked about. They did hold Perdue to significantly below most of their averages for both the season. And the tournament they did play well, but it just comes back to what we've been saying all along, which is the rhythm wasn't there, right. The, the made shots wasn't there. You get the open shot. It felt like it should have been a step into jumper for a good three point shooter and it ends up being an air ball DJ Horn who, by the way, I think at times, times recognized I have to be Superman and maybe forced it a little bit, did get his 20 but took 21 shots. That's unusual for a player of, of his caliber. Um Michael o'connell's injury that alone him going in and out of the lineup and give him credit for trying to be, you know, the warrior and I'm, I'm gonna play, that may have even messed with them a little bit more by going in and coming out and going in and coming out. Uh, you know, and, and it made, whether it was Jade and Taylor M Cel Horn, it made them more on ball ball handlers, they had to control things more and, and that's a role that, you know, I is added to your plate at the last possible second and, and it, it can mess with things. So, you know, there's, there's, I don't want to say, you know, I don't believe in moral victories. So if you lose a game, you lose a game. Sure, there's, there's no shame in losing to an opponent when the shots weren't falling for you. When your offense did what it could, you dealt with some injuries. A couple of guys didn't have hot shooting nights. You, you hoped what? They win nine straight and then lost the 10th. You hoped that they were gonna put together 11 straight magical games, but you knew it wasn't gonna be like 100. This wasn't the new way NC State played, uh, a hot streak is not like, well, I guess we're never gonna play bad again. You just hope to get through it before the, the the clock struck zero on your Cinderella run, the clock struck midnight and, and it turns out it happened one game too early but, but they played pretty darn well for most of, of a magical run. They played well enough to win every game up until that one and, and you know, it's, it's as much as we can point to like this didn't happen. The big guys needed to score more morsel needed to knock down a couple of shots. Uh DJ Horn need to shoot a better percentage. Breon pass maybe need to get the ball more because he actually had some, some juice like as much as we want to point to all the, the little minute details and say this is how it could have been different barring like all of those things being different. I'm not sure the end result is different. Breon pass. Looked really good in the minutes that he got. I mean, the future bright is for him. The future is bright for NC State's basketball program just in general. We could have a whole podcast on that. But what's also impressive is that, as you mentioned, they won nine straight. Look pretty darn good doing it. And they did it after the wave of emotions they had during the regular season start off hot, start off good in the AC C play, start off five and oh up until they played North Carolina at PNC Arena lost four straight. And again, I always say at a point in the season where they could have just split off and just throw in the towel, it might have brought them closer together. Pack therapy. You mentioned the future. I want to talk about how this impacts the future and we're gonna do that right after this break here on the Pack Therapy podcast back here on the Pack Therapy podcast, Tim Donnelly Graham Hill. The, the I almost don't want to do this too soon, but you have to uh the future. How does this run by NC State impact the future? Because, you know, I was, I was in a Twitter argument, right? And that's you, that's where all the real intellectual conversations have uh with a, with a UN C fan and, and UN C fans were doing UN C fans things during the game and I don't blame them it's a rivalry. Go nuts. Talk your trash. Roy Williams is even there cheering against. Exactly. Talk, talk your trash. Um, but the part that was frustrating to me was that they were, uh, acting as if this run had no impact on anything. Like, oh, now it's back to normal. Oh, you got to see you again in 34 years. Like it, it's, now you will pat you on your head and I was going listen, it doesn't have to be something for the future, right? It could just be, you experienced an awesome month and you're celebrating it. No one, no one is, is saying that they're, they're gonna be back in the final four next year. That's all waits to be seen. No one's saying they're gonna be the favorite in the AC C next year, but there is an opportunity here to build off of it. Uh Burns Horn Marcel, they've exhausted their eligibility. They're not coming back. Their impact on the program can still be felt for years to come if you take advantage of it in the right ways. Now part of it is the guys that are coming back and, and, and we'll see who does and who doesn't. The transfer portal is active. And uh I don't know if, if you know this, this is a for my Seinfeld fans. This would be a mighty impressive way to Costanza, right? Thank you everybody. Good night. Like it's a, it's a great joke to end on. I don't think they want to. Uh, so the, the Middlebrooks, the o'connells, the, the they Dennis Parker Juniors, like everybody has a decision to make. But if they all come back, that's a mighty, mighty impressive amount of experience to bring back to the court. Another thing that you need to keep in mind is will Jay and Taylor Mike o'connell return next season. I feel pretty high on Michael o'connell just because he's now part of NC State basketball history when you look back, you know, 37 years from now when NC State on another incredible run. Those are those. Yeah, Caleb Love. I thought he was gonna be around for a long time. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I actually, no, let's rub that in a little bit fair enough. But I, I don't, I don't think, I, I think I would be surprised if more than one or two that have eligibility remaining aren't back because I mean, this, this is a great sales pitch for what you can do in Raleigh. Right? It's, it's, it's so much fun. Why would you not want to come back and try to do it again? Well, that is a sale pitch for Kevin Keys and time where the transporter was so primarily useful in college basketball. Dare I say Kevin Keats might go, haven't had the greatest a or might have the advantage next season compared to other college college basketball coaches because you know that there's a lot of guys right now whose seasons ended way earlier than they wanted to. So maybe in the NCAA tournament thinking, wow, he was able to do this with seven guys that he just threw together before the season. Why I want to be a part of that. Well, it's actually my, my pitch to the guys that were on the floor, the, the o'connells, the Jaden Taylor's the, the Middle Brooks uh to get them to come back would be, listen, the reason why it took us so long to do this is because we brought in so many new faces and we didn't have the, the, the core already set and, and granted, you know, DJ burns was around, Casey Marcel was around. So they had a few guys. But if you bring back 56 guys that played in a final four for you and, and you're gonna have to hit the portal and I guarantee you they're already in the portal and I guarantee you, uh you know, the pitch is right now. Hey, we had all these transfers, we went to the final four. We want you to be next and they're talking to big names. Uh But if you bring in those guys, you're gonna want them to, to already have the structure in place. And I, and I think they have that this year. Um heck I would have dj burns on the call if you can't, right? Get get, get DJ Horn to call somebody up and say this is my experience playing one year at NC State and this is why I think it would be great. I don't even know if that's legal. Right? Do they become boosters or alum that quickly? Uh It's, it's, it's, it's something that not many programs can say. Every other program is saying, you know, if you come here, we're going to try to make it to a final four. NC State can say if you come here, we know how to make it to a final four because we just did, uh, it's, it's reinforcing Michael o'connell said, right, this is why I came to NC State. Uh, they, they were talking about national championships during recruiting. Now when you do that, it comes with even more credibility because it's something that you've done. One of the big, one of the big things also will be, how do you replace DJ Burns and, and DJ Horn, I mean DJ Horne Casey MC, you don't DJ Burns. Yeah, you don't replace DJ Burns just as far as the sides and everything. But you recruit an offensive tackle from the football team and try to try to say like, hey, you played, you played in high school, right? That's just not how it works. Tony would be like, hey, Tony, what, what defensive guys can you spare for us? But I mean, you got Brandon Huntley Hatfield coming in from Louisville that, that certainly helps. Uh, that one thing that a lot of state fans probably need to remember and you just probably haven't thought about it was just being caught up in the midst of this run. Paul mcneil Trey Parker, they're gonna headline NC State's 2024 recruiting class. Fayetteville native Parker and Rockingham native, Paul mcneil, a pair of fours story recruits according to 247 sports will make up the Wolf Pat's recruiting class. Uh mcneil, 6 ft 6 ft six wing, uh, score 900 points in one game this year, scored like the most three point shots all season. He legitimately is he 70 point game. And then Parker more known for incredible athleticism. A trade that meshes well and Kevin Ke's system as far as getting up and down the court in transition, three point shooting as well and they're not done. Uh I don't know if everyone wants to hear this but, uh Copeland from Syracuse who was trash talking NC State the entire game in the AC C has said he's, he's in the transfer portal and he said he's heard from NC State. There are going to be players that here from NC state up and down because you have to recognize the moment, right? You have to recognize you're one of the hot teams right now. Like I'm, I'm big on the one shining moment moment, the, the, the song and the video that plays after the national championship. It'll be tonight and I'll be staying up for it. Um, like, state's gonna be all over that thing. Right. They're going to have the, the win over Texas Tech. They're gonna have the overtime game against Oakland. They're going to have beating Duke. They're going to like the shot of the Boom box. DJ Burns is going to be all over that thing and, and you, you have to take advantage of it, you have to, right? Because if not, then it is just what uh that, that Un C fan was telling me on Twitter, right? It's just like, oh, you had a hot month, way to go. But if it becomes a hot month that turns into recruiting two top-level transfers that fit your system that become fitting them in with o'connell and, and Taylor who you convinced to come back based on the fun of this. And that turns into uh mcneil your, your stud scoring incoming true freshman. Uh being in a culture as a true freshman that allows him to blossom because you're in a winning culture that becomes him as a junior leading the AC C in scoring that becomes the next five star wanting to be the next Paul mcneil becomes, which becomes and then suddenly it's 40 years from now. Uh Kevin Keats is, is, you know, finally retiring and going into the raft, there's a, there's a statue being built of him. There's, there's more trophies and there's more banners. But that's the challenge now. Right. And, and by the way, it happened, the moment it struck triple zeros against Purdue, actually, I'll, I'll give you like an hour after that to hug your seniors to get in the huddle in the locker room to talk about how special it was. But the moment that, that you turn the page, it becomes about the future and, and, you know, it's wildly cliche and it's funny now because Stefon Diggs didn't end up working in, in Buffalo. But there's a picture of Stefon Diggs, I think, like five years ago in Buffalo, uh, the Chiefs had beaten them. I think it was the AFC championship game and, and Stefon Diggs is watching the other team celebrate and you realize that was a player who just lost, right? And, and had the world at their fingertips, dreams of, of rings and banners and had just lost and was already making themselves stand torturing themselves to watch that celebration. Thinking about the future. Now again, it's hilarious because it obviously did not work out for Stefon Diggs in Buffalo, but they had a lot of success since then. And, and, and like it is kind of that natural turning of the page where you have to build off of what it is or else it is just that one cool story, right? It's, if you don't turn it into something bigger, if you don't turn it into something better, it's just Hey, remember and by the way, if this is all it is, it's really fun, right? If it's just, hey, remember in 2024 that awesome run we went on and, and you know, as, as a podcast we had here on Pack Therapy with Graham and his dad, Tim uh showed like if it was just a cool moment for uh parents and Children and it was just a cool moment for DJ Burns to make six figures in nil deals in two weeks. If it was just a cool moment, that's great. But as a program, the challenge is to make it not just a cool moment, make it that piece that changed everything that turned you into a bit bigger and better program. I'm glad you brought up Nil and DJ Burns and just the massive money he got just in the two week span of the tournament. That's another part of this, take a page out of football's book, even though you can't really promote a win out of it. A final four is just as good. A final four appearance. This is the time for Kevin Keats to release the video on uh you know, one pack, one goal nil collect do and say like, hey, now's the time like to donate to NC State basketball so we can lock up some of these players while also having a uh a recruiting tool because that's what it's all about nowadays. Get these guys out of the portal to come and play here next year so that this could continue to go on for years and years. These consistent NCAA tournament runs, this was really fun. How much would you pay to do it again? There you go. Right. And, and 25 bucks like, are, are, are you willing to, to not go out to eat and make, make food at home one night to save 20 bucks and donate it or are you somebody that, you know, and I, and, and I know a few of them that, you know, this opportunity they were in Phoenix. Right? And, and they, uh, took the family and they wanted their kids to have that memory and they wanted the NC state to be a special thing. Are you willing to give 100? Are you willing to give 1000? Are you, are you rich and loaded and willing to give 10 G's like, like that all needs to be a part of, of how you build it into the future. Um, you know, and, and guess who else should be calling? Dave Doran should be calling, guess who else should be calling? Uh, like every, every because, hey, basketball was fun, right? How fun would it be if we made the final four on the football field? Like it's, it's truly a rising tide, raises all boats and, and, and money, uh, you know, raising money is pretty darn important. It does just sort of feel like, yeah, we have no idea what will happen, the season just ended, but it does sort of, but it is that quick. Uh, uh, Dan Hurley, the coach of uconn, he said part of the reason he's so excited his team keeps winning is because he doesn't have to dive into the portal. He's like, I know as soon as this run is over, I have to be knee deep in the portal. So it's kind of nice that my team is still playing. So I have a reason to be like, ah, can't do it. Got, you know, gotta get ready for the national championship tonight. Uh, like it has to start now and, and, and there's really no other other way to put it other than it has to start now and you're never gonna be hotter than you are right now. Like right now you are the 11 seed that ran to the final four, a couple of weeks from now. You're the 11 seed that ran to the final four last month and then a couple of months from now you're gonna be, oh, yeah, that team from last year that had the hot streak like you, you're never gonna be as white hot as you are right now. It just feels like the tides are turning for NC State basketball program, something that Wolpe fans have been won and for a very, very long time and the transport point will be a big will be a, it will be a big part of that. Kevin K has proven the past two seasons from guys like JCO Joyner. Now DJ Horn, DJ Burns case were so previously to that, that he does get it right when it comes to grabbing these guys out of the portal and you can even make an argument that Keats kind of, you know, after this year succeeds in putting teams together via the portal. Yeah, the last two years, um, I, I think part of the reason why this year was, uh, down here during the regular season is because they, they, they assembled their team that way if you told me, you know, it's, uh, there are certain teams like this in the NBA and I won't go full NBA where it's like they're an older team, they're hurt a bunch and they're like a six seed. But you feel like as long as they're 100% healthy, 10 minutes before the, the playoffs begin, they're a contender to win it all. I kind of look at NC State with, with Keats that way. Now, like you can get all the transfers as long as you mesh as long as you gel 10 minutes before the AC C championship, you've proven you're, you're a threat to go win it all. So, uh, you know, that's, that's as big of a compliment as I can give them is if you, if you get it right 10 minutes before the AC C championship, you might be in the final four because you just did it. The good news is for those no commerce games at PNC arena. Expect more of a crowd. Yeah, definitely. And, and by the way, it's not a carte blanche, like you gotta earn it every time. Right. I can guarantee you the, the night they raise the banner, I can guarantee you the, the first game. Right. Those like, they're gonna be massive crowds, but you're going to put a product together that makes people want to stick around. It's, it's sports are crazy that way. It's what have you done for me lately? Uh, which is why you lock up contract extensions and everything. Like, like, uh, Kevin Keats did when things are going well because, and he might get a new contract this off-season. Who knows, uh, when things are going well because who knows how long they're going to be going? Well. That's, that's kind of your challenge. That's kind of one thing that we haven't mentioned is that it's the refresh of Kevin Keats's career at NC State. You love the analogies. It's like when you go through a bad breakup and you realize, you know what, I miss them, I didn't realize how good I had it with them until, until I went and saw them, you know, until I saw them just get over the breakup quickly. It kind of feels. I, I was at the Hurricanes game yesterday, I'll bring this point up and I'll finish with this is that I was at the Hurricanes game and I saw somebody wearing a shirt that says Kevin Keats, I owe you an apology. And then on the back of the shirt, it said, I'm sorry. There you go. That's all of NC State's fan base right now. It's, it's, that's actually very self-aware because I feel like more of the fan base is I knew it all along. I don't know why everyone else was talking about his job. I was, I love that guy and it's like, hm, there weren't many loud voices saying you love that guy. Uh, but it's, it's, yeah, fans get to change their mind just like everybody else. Kevin Keats changed a lot of minds this, this run and, uh, he'll definitely be back next year and into the future. Uh, and, and we're gonna be along for the ride here at the Pack Therapy podcast. Please subscribe. We're gonna have some off-season pods. We're gonna have some football pods. They had their spring break over the spring game over the weekend as well. A little overshadowed, but still I had it. Uh, so please subscribe to the Pack Therapy podcast everywhere. Podcasts can be found. Check it out on youtube. Thank you to Graham. Great basketball season. Uh, we'll, we'll continue to follow along basketball, big recruits and things like that. Uh, until next time. Have a great time. Everybody from here at the pack therapy pod.