Holden Thorp he was the 10th Chancellor at North Carolina from 2008 through 2013 a lot of things happened in that period of time and he joins us now in the Eastern Automotive Group Hotline. Holden Thorp. How are you? Great great to be with you guys again appreciate the time as always. Okay so Grant of rights has been a very um interesting talking point with the latest round of realignment and you were the chancellor at U. N. C. When the grant of rights was was doctored up and signed and meant to keep the A. C. C. Together. It was re upped in 2000 and 16. This was all because Maryland left the conference to join the big 10. So what were those conversations like before Maryland left for the future of the league when Maryland did decide to leave for the Big 10 and how a grant of rights eventually came about. Yeah so Maryland We wanted to do the grant of rights earlier you know because remember 2011 that's when um that's when people talked about Oklahoma and texas the first time and when the sec made addition. So that's when a lot of this crazy stuff started. And so we had been talking about eventually getting to a grant of rights even then we had a penalty um that you had to pay. And when we started talking about the grant of rights it became obvious that Maryland Maryland didn't want to sign it. So that's how we kind of knew Maryland was um might be leaving us. And um so the first time we discussed it was clear Maryland wasn't on board. Um And very shortly thereafter they left. Uh and then once they left it still took some work. Um But we managed to get everybody to sign on to the grant of rights. And it was really fun working with john Swofford or as you guys call them ninja swap because you know there were academic politics involved and I helped him because I was the chair of the Council of Presidents that year and there was a lot of business stuff that he did extremely well. And so we had a good time putting that deal together. And it took us it took us almost a year after Maryland left to get it done. And the thing about the grant of rights it's hard it's not like um adding another school. Everybody has to agree. It has to be unanimous because everyone signing their um their their rights over. And you know I did not leak to uh to Giulio the contract. I don't know how you guys got that. But that absolutely is my signature. Uh that's on the one that you guys posted. And I just want to give a shout out to Sister Bernice for teaching me to write in cursive coming coming through kind of it kind of felt like you just question my abilities they're holding but I'm just saying it didn't come from him. Okay fair enough fair enough. Holden thorp is the editor in chief of the science family of journals? But he was the former chancellor at U. N. C. A very important time in sec history. And we're going back there now and I'm curious Holden what was the push back like at the length of the grant of rights deal which goes through 2036? Yeah so that's where ninjas watch really did something amazing. So The first one I forget didn't go that long. I went into the 20's sometimes. Um That that's the one that I signed And then it was extended in 2016 as uh the other judges said. And I wasn't around then so you'd have to get somebody else to explain to you what happened. But I think it was a great day's work to get that thing extended as long as they did. It's it's uh it's if you if you want to see the A. C. C. Survive that's a That's a very important factor that might make it happen. John Swofford gets a lot of criticism now people try to wreck on the moves that were made at the initial expansion in in '04. And then again in 13. I'm one of those people who I don't love all of the teams that they added. I do think John Swofford should get credit for getting the best deal he possibly could out of Notre dame. What were those negotiations like what were the teeth pulling sessions like trying to get the great golden dormers to give the five games a year that they did to the A. C. C. And also to get Notre dame to sign that grant of rights by the way. Yeah. All of that was important. But they wanted to do it. I think that the fact that we were willing to give them away not to join in football um gave us a huge advantage. You know? Of course I was. I remember saying to john, what about six games? Um, but we were happy to get five. We knew that was really, really good for our members to have Notre dame come to their campuses every few years? Uh And john was john and father Jenkins was a great partner. He was very enthusiastic about the whole thing. And something that I believe in south Carolina reported yesterday, which I hadn't seen that much in a lot of the news stories is that there's also a clause that says that if Notre dame joins the conference, They have to join the sec in football. So. Yeah. Yeah. That's always been, yeah. That's always been part of the of their arrangement that was signed back in what, 2013 or whenever it was announced in 2014? Yeah. Right. So that's a very important factor as well. And I think are you trying to wait. Are you trying to say there was no resentment from anyone in the A. C. C. I mean, let's be honest, north Carolina is a fairly important cog when it comes to the A. C. C. You're trying to say to me that no one in the A. C. C. Was like, man, what are we doing with a, with, with Notre Dame? Only getting five games? Or are we sure we're making the best possible deal with Notre dame at that time? There was, I mean, there was a lot of chatter on social media and on the message boards, but I don't remember any, um, I'm talking about the president's rooms. You were the guys making the calls. I'm not talking about, I'm not talking about the twitter reverb. I'm talking about the actual room where it happened there holding, I don't remember, I don't remember anything about that. Um, I think everybody, I mean, look, everybody knows when Notre Dame plays a football game in your town. That is one of the biggest days that your campus can possibly have in terms of the fans who travel there and the money that gets spent and the exposure that you get. And it's one of the NBC games, uh, the amount of exposure you get. and so to get five games and to get Notre dame for, for basketball and the olympic sports, which was a great fit for all of us. Um, and you know, john Jenkins as absolutely wonderful colleagues. Uh, it was that, that part of it was extremely smooth. Holden thorpe joining us here on the O G alongside joe Giulio, I'm Jovi's former chancellor at north Carolina from 2000 and eight through 2013 now the editor in chief of science magazine. So I want to go back to that Maryland time frame in the texas and Oklahoma and how you view this from a presidential level, a chancellor level. You mentioned social media, I'll bring up, you know, talk radio and getting into the speculation of conference realignment. Everything else. So for context here texas was at some point discussed for the A. C. C. I mean there were discussions of pods and what that would look like? Obviously texas and Oklahoma could have left for the pac 12 but that didn't happen. They ended up working a deal with ESPN, they got their own network And there was also speculation that north Carolina at one point in time was being eyed or had discussions with the big 10 and possibly leaving the A. C. C. In the same way that Maryland did. I think the reports at the time of the speculation at the time was about Georgia Tech North Carolina and Virginia. How serious was that? How did that ever get to you? What kind of discussions were had in that 2,011 timeframe. Yes. So there was a lot of discussion about moving and I think, Um there was discussion about the Big 10 and the sec. Um, and, but, but I think that um That Texas and Oklahoma deciding to stay in the big 12 then kind of ended a lot of the speculation I think if texas and Oklahoma had gone then with the grant of rights not being done and the A. C. C. Being less certain than it had been. I think you could have seen a lot of movement. But look here's the and I know a lot of people calling your show and going on the message boards and whatever and saying kevin and Bubba should do this or that and I haven't talked to him. Um But but here's the here's the reality they're dealing with um you know, for for U. N. C. To go without N. C. State would be a political mess. Um Because the there's so much rivalry among those two schools in the board of governors and there's so much politics that goes on that for one of them to get the big payday from one of the big conferences and not the other would be politically very challenging. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but that's certainly something you prefer not to deal with if you're if you're the Chancellor. Well this that happened with Virginia and Virginia Tech and how Virginia Tech ended up showing up in the in the A. C. C. So yeah you can speak from experience though, you'd rather be Carolina in that political fight than state though. Uh well in terms of winning it or in terms of what would happen afterwards it could be pretty grim afterwards if Carolina went. So I I came to the conclusion that if I could come up with a way not to have to do that that was a good thing. And of course the other thing is you don't want to break up Carolina and Duke. I mean uh if Carolina goes to one of these conferences and Duke doesn't, you're talking about a duke Carolina game over new Years or something like that and you know that it wouldn't be the greatest rivalry in sports then. I mean that would be the end of it in my in my view. So you know, these are both things you'd rather not have to deal with. And so when texas and Oklahoma decided to stay um we decided that the best thing for us to do was to try to make the A. C. C. As strong as we could make it. And um you know I think the Notre dame deal. Uh and the grant of rights went a long way to doing that now. You know, are there clever associates at Skadden Arps or Hog Hogan levels who could figure out how to take the deal a partner. I'm sure there are. But boy, there are a lot of there's a lot of hurdles you've got these contracts you've got the political stuff with N. C. State and you've got the duke Carolina rivalry and you know that's that's a very tough needle to thread. Well actually they won't do it or they aren't thinking about it. I have no idea. Well you you had to think about this at one point in time and that's that's what I was curious about in terms of the, yeah go back to the part about you. Talk to the sec. Yeah. Oh sure. I mean um look Carolina is a good a good partner to have. So I certainly didn't have any um you know official conversations with the commissioner or anything like that. But you know some of those presidents were good friends of mine and yeah you know presidents get together and talk about stuff and yes we we uh I'm pretty sure we could have gone to the sec if we wanted to. You were chanting we want Bama and one of those billiards games or one of these sessions or is in the text threats. It was in the texture the super secret president text. There's definitely no there's no documents for you to go. Just curious Julio's foia spidey senses just started tingling. Well yeah he can he can see what he can find but I doubt there's much there alden thorpe joining us here on the O. G. I feel okay saying Carolina could have gone to the sec if we wanted to. Yes. Yeah. I don't think you're it could have been actually being an actual something that you considered as the Chancellor of north Carolina are two different things. That I think that's what we're asking you. What level would you say? And that's the point that I wanted to focus on what the, since the grant of rights and will close on this since the grant of rights is. We know what the grant of rights is now and you know what it is if you know, you're still a college president and you have to start thinking about what your next move is. And as you mentioned, there's a political factor to this, There's a financial factor to this. But at what point do you look at it and go, it's worth the sliding scale of pain to make the move. When do you think, you know, The grant of rights runs through 2036? So if you're wondering where things are going, when do you start thinking about that if you want to make a move as a college president? Yeah, I mean, that's a big number to pay to try to buy out of. And, you know, you're talking about a protracted legal discussion. I would imagine to arrive at that number. And so that's a lot of pain. Uh, and also it's kind of hard to be nimble if you've got to undo this contract? Um, so between all of those things? I think it's harder than just looking at it and saying, Hey, wouldn't it be great if Carolina was in the sec or the big 10 if you're a Carolina fan that you know, probably that would be good now. Uh since the sec and the big 10 are gonna pay out twice as much money looks like but how you get there is um gonna require some artistry and you know, kevin and Bubba both used to work for me and I love those guys and whatever they come up with, you know, they're the ones who have all the facts and I support wherever they come down. So what you're saying is Marilyn had it easy in the grand scheme of things. Sure. Because they got out when all they had to do was pay the penalty, which was a number that they knew and if I remember correctly They ended up not even paying the whole thing. Yeah, I got negotiated down from $50 million. I forgot what the final number is, but it wasn't the 50, it was a little bit more than yeah. I also think they tried. I mean legally they tried to post facto Maryland who said we never agreed to the deal that you're making. So we can't we can't be paid right. It's effectively with their yeah, in my living room. Sure you're not kidding. It actually happened in your living room. I'm not kidding. It actually happened now in your living room. You watch Obi wan in Star trek. So correct. I like to be won by the way, much better than Book of boba fett. I thought Book of boba fett was just Mandalorian season 2.5 0. B one. It closed strong, don't you think? Yeah. The people who enjoyed your rant about it, but the people who were criticizing, I mean they just don't have enough to do. It was very entertaining. And for those of us who like Star Wars because we remember How great we felt leaving the theatre in 1977. The first time we saw it and we just want to feel that way again. Kobe one was was was a perfect tribute to that. That final Lightsaber battle was great episode. So I can't let this go. I can't let this go. Holden, give me a second here at the time. Right, john Swofford Carolina guy A. C. C. Commissioner Jim. Delany Carolina guy. Big 10. Commissioner, john skipper Carolina guy, ESPN head honcho. You're telling me you were gonna tell all of them potentially that Carolina was going to say no to all of those Carolina guys and go to the sec. Well, we didn't do it, but we thought about it. We thought about lots of things then texas and Oklahoma state and we just didn't do any of them. That's fascinating to me. Money talks, man. That's fast. Money talks holding. We appreciate the time. As always love the candid conversations and it'll be interesting to see where things go the next couple of weeks.