so what what's it been like for you watching him grow up and become a star, you know, from for lack of better term behind bars? Well for one um I already knew that, you know, he would be a star, you know, it was like, it was like a petition, like I used to always tell his mama that he's going to the NBA one day, you know, because I remember she was telling that he liked football and want to and I should tell her look, you know, make sure he gets on the basketball track, don't say no, because I got a twin brother, you know what I'm saying? So I grew up, you know, me and my brother sharing everything, he's been involved and everything who was highly competitive, you know what I'm saying? So so there were no he didn't have that growing up, you know what I'm saying? So that's what I see, you know, you know, like to me, I feel like he don't have he didn't have nobody to compete with, you know what it is like to, you know, to really be great, I feel like I can be hands on, you know, help them, you know, because, you know, being behind bars, you know, people don't tend to take the words more seriously or they don't affect them to where somebody is already out there because they're looking at it, you know, through their perspective of your locked up, like what can you tell me what I'm saying, but back to the issue at hand, you know, I always knew that he was gonna grow up, you know, I play basketball because you know me, you know myself, you know, I was a hell of a basketball player myself and I'm still in, you know, for my age, you know what I'm saying? Still can move, still can dunk and all that. And I'm 61, you know me. So basically I think I studied my growth, no, what does he know indulge in the smoking of cigarettes, weed and stuff like that because we had a growth spurt at attack maybe. No, you know, and you know, it's a, it's a constitution. No, to uh see your child, you know, outro them daddy, I just look at it. I just call him, he's a hybrid of myself, you know, he's just a better version, but he has his own identity and stuff like that. So I just try to get him to embrace who he are and you know, his background, no obstacle is going to come his way, try to derail him off the track. It's tradition. You were, you were saying, um, I interrupted you at first about just the dream. I mean, I guess just if you want to elaborate that idea you were talking about, about living the dream. Yeah. You know, um, you know, because like I said, me and my brother, you know, we was, you know, some hell of a ballplayer's ourselves, you know, make a jump out the Jack and don't, you know, it's very athletic, you know, multi talented, you know what I'm saying? So you know, not to play most of the sports was that well everywhere will be so so that's so that's that. I already seen that. So it was like it was already in this and it's in his DNA and it's changed that, you know, you know the athleticism and all the other trees, you know, automatically get passed down, you know, because I heard about my uh my daddy, you know him and his family, you know, there was athletes and stuff like that. I knew you know that he will be into, you know african saying athletics gonna be growing up even though I won't deal you know what I'm saying? But just like its people like even though, you know, a lot of guys in here like when they see my son um on tv and stuff like that uh they say that you know we run up the court the same uh my game is you know, it's like it's like I'm it's like it's like a mount their plan and it's like I've already been in his life, you know, and I ain't been there due to my incarceration so like they can see me in him while he out there on that court north. So I see myself as well, you know what I mean? But he just, you know, he just mortality. So like he's good and using both hands, you know what I'm saying his left hand and stuff like that. I ain't no I ain't really working on that. I'm not really used it but that sort of effect. It was like I see in his game. So how are you, how does it work? Like how are you able to watch his games I guess? Kind of talked me through, you know, a game day how you're able to watch him and then you know what that experience is like for you? Well Uh for one like sometimes the game will come on ESPN or ESPN two so like we get them channels, you know what I mean? Or I hear from uh I hear from like I'll call my brother or his mother. You know what I'm saying that you know go over the so they let me know what you know what I'm saying? What this outcome like what the status was if I could be able to see the game. No And and the 3rd the 3rd. No it wasn't it ain't no secret no for this prison. But it was at one point in time there was a lot of cell phones know what I'm saying in the prison soon. So I was able to see see the highlights and its videos myself. You know what I'm saying? No that that was the you know that was the way but you know as you say, but like I say it felt good you know to see my son on tv especially that gang he had against Nebraska when they went into four overtimes, remember that game and you know that that you know that actually headlining sports, you know what I'm saying when Sportscenter came on that night that that game was the storyline and and my son, you know Deborah, here's the story that no sign for the historic performance that he put up, it was a good feeling, you know, and like I said, like a lot of people in here like, like they know me and they know of me or they heard about me and you know, we're going around, you know, everybody know about my son, even the staff and you know, stuff like that, you know, you got the the crushing officers staff here, you know that you're asking the question like somebody even follow him on this uh instagram and stuff like that, you know what I'm saying? So you know, they like I get all the high praises, you know what I'm saying? And they look at it uh they look at me like as a no, it's like a success story, you know what I'm saying? Because you know, I got all this time, but like I told my son so I can still get out because I told him I got a Clemson petitioner, you know what I'm saying? I still waiting on the house of folks and I told him that you know, I always told him that he would be the reason that I get out too and I can be hands on with, you know what I'm saying? Because I can work with on his game and you know, so he can have all the tools in his back, you know, and I used uh up and coming players was already in the league that he like, he was supposed to be in his draft. You know what I'm saying? Like Know what I'm saying in 19 drought, I used that draft class, but that would have been his original, you know what I'm saying, drop class, but you know, he went the academic issues started at where he had prep school, know what I'm saying? Then he had to sit out a year and all that. You know, like I said, you know, I talked to him about all that stuff, you know, I called them all the time, sometimes I can't catch them stuff like that. But when I called him, I'm just saying, I talked to him, you know, basically, you know, that's true. It's like I'm, I'll be giving them lectures. How's that? No, no kids all these days, you know, they might feel like you're telling them the same thing what I'm saying, but just in different ways, how did you, you know, he, you know, you go to jail basically right as he's born. So how did you kind of find a way to get into his life and and show him that you should be in his life over the years, You know, I stayed in contact with his mother, she can't visit me whenever, you know, I had, you know, she when she had the opportunity oh to mail, you know the ladders and you know, and me calling. So that's so that's how I stay in his life. That you know, she always sent me pictures. It's like I watched him grow up, you know what I'm saying? Do hitches all the events, all his success. You know, his mother, she sent me, she always sent me pictures. You, you know, your sentences is long. You know, it's I guess it's not a life sentence, but what was it? 51 years. How long was it? Yeah. So how has, yeah, I was just gonna say, you know, I mean that would, that could break a lot of people. I mean, how is just being able to follow him? How has that kept you going? It gave me a sense of purpose for life. No, and you know, and so it's a good feeling to see that, you know, yeah, my offspring wasn't a product of my environment, you know what I'm saying from where I came from, know what I'm saying? It's always, you know, the child always supposed to be better than the parent and and always, you know, a parent should always aspire that so always make sure that, you know, I keep my energy positive so that way it triggers out to his energy, you know what I mean? So so that way he don't grow up the way I grew up and you know his mother made sure that he did. So I gave her all the praise in the world because she had to play both worlds I mean so I always know when I give her and I get that you get them, you know what I'm saying because you know uh city you know like it's you know it's manifested with gangs and stuff like that. So you know I give my son all the praise. Yeah he ain't uh no getting involved with gangs and all that old stuff. Take me take me back to 2001. Um you know I have the charges but I, I don't know exactly what happened. Um so you know I guess the best you could, I'm sure it's the day you've lived over and over in your mind. I mean tell me tell me what happened if you're comfortable sharing uh I got locked up. Well you know like I said I got a twin brother, you know I was, you know I was the following twin always know he was always the one that did things first, not just tagged along and you know just by me tagging along, you know just to be out there when the other dude's got no situation and stuff like that Castle, I went out with him and no dudes had a argument and stuff like that words were said, my brother, he uh, anything shot through the door. No, I'm saying. So here I am shooting through the door. Well you know a partner, a juvenile got hit. But they said that you know, he was asleep inside the apartment, but you know, it was no highly unlikely because you know, it was a drug infested area dudes that was inside the house, a drug house and all of those stuff. Well, you know, you know, people just don't put it one way, you know what I'm saying? But you know, uh, tv that was involved out there, you know a lot of guys, whoa, they tell the police one thing just to get out of trouble, whatever. No, you know, and, and being from the streets and stuff like that, you trying to stick to a cold not to say nothing and this is nothing. So basically, you know, person testified on me and strictly live, you know what I'm saying? No, I'm trying to say that I was the shooter, but you know that wasn't even sure that they couldn't tell us apart, you know, but, but my, you know, very unfortunate, you know, having to uh, court of Poland lawyer and then my own self ignorance of the law, you know of a lot of things, you know, just for you know, product product of the environment, so they're late. Are you having your time? You know? Then I took a jury trial. Yeah, it was just a lot of things that I just didn't know back there. Yeah. You know, there's a lot of, you don't know, you know, they get involved and stuff like that, you know? Yeah, I was looking at it, that's that makes sense because I was looking at the charges and I'm like, man, that is a long sentence for I mean obviously it's not a good thing that happened obviously, but like that seems pretty harsh at the same time I guess, you know, you know, take a jury trial and stuff like that, you know, the laws and you know, that's a whole another story and I said, you know, I was ignorant. No, I don't know about that, you know, and I don't think of myself and my my new family that I have just, you know created, you know what I'm saying? Well, you know, if I would have had that in mind and you know, I want to be here, you know, we are not a whole different story. So I just try to learn, I look back, you know, so I used to uh just wake up mad just because how loud loud is once again, no, I was uneducated. No, you know, in this case, you know, this this is stuff that happens, but you know, I did have a, you know, my turnaround was, you know, his mother, you know, and you know, you know, they know the way he grew up in the upbringing, you know the job that she did, what I'm saying, I can sit back, you know, and I look, you know what I'm saying and there's some right, so how I was just gonna say um so how old he is, how old was he when you got arrested? Uh the when I first got arrested, he was like eight, he was probably like nine months and when I got locked in that, you know what I'm saying, I got red died and got locked back up 11 months. So when I finally left, He was 11 months old. When was the next time you got to see him in person again? It was like My fellow one travel September and I finally got to see him. Oh no, no, no, no, I had, I had jail visit when I got to prison, you have one minute remaining. Uh I'm gonna call that, Yeah, you want to call me back, Yeah, I'm gonna call back, okay. Um But yeah, I was, I was just when I was, the last question I asked was what, I was just wasn't sure if it had been like the next time you saw him, he was like seven years old. So it sounds like you got to see him though a little bit, as he, as he kind of like how often were you seeing him in person as he grew up? Well, uh, I might, oh, when, when I was on the street, I saw him every day. I didn't have a good relationship with his son mother, you know? So she no, she's just, hey stuff looks difficult, but I always make sure, you know, I saw him earlier today, his mother was together. Yeah. So that was another another question I had. Um, so you and you and Natasha were you were you were dating? How would you describe kind of what your relationship was? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, I'm actually gonna get to talk to her tomorrow. Um, so, you know, I thought I interviewed Darien already and you know, he says he gets to talk to and stuff like you said. But I'm sure it's hard for two men sometimes to, to say how they really feel. So, you know, what would you like to say to him that maybe it's hard to say sometimes when it's just you and him. Well for one there's no, no, ain't nothing hard for me to say no. I tell them all the time. You know, I tell him, you know, uh, you know, don't ever feel like I'm a stranger. It's, it's nothing that, you know, I don't have to say nothing to what that he don't already know. No, I don't, you know, I don't feel, you know that way far, You know, Not be able to express myself son. So I guess yeah, what is it then that that you do express? Because I mean I'm sure there's so many emotions and so many things that you you know, you get to run over in your mind while you're in prison that you could have done differently and that makes you just kind of reflect. So what what is it that you tell him that you know that just kind of about you know, first you know, I let him know, I always know I love you know, I'm sorry, you know, I left something like that. You know, I tell him all the time, you know due to my mistake. No, but I let him know No, ain't nobody perfect. That's something that we all find out about personal world, just what you you know, after you take a fall I always let him know that I'm proud of and I always tell him you know how he can be great. I always tell him that he is great. I'll tell him that he's a naughty one. No. So I try to give him the confidence and everything. But once again, you know like damn, like I'm not there and I always left no. You know, you know, and tell us a look all right, I can still get out. I understand I got this time, you know, I told him about, you know my clemency petition. It's like look man, I still get out, right, I can still be hands on, which is stuff like that, I can still get his second chance I deserved like I said, I talked to him about a lot of stuff, right? I don't I don't try to put nothing on the tape man. I always tell him that you know he can, you know, you can feel free to tell me how he feels. You know, it's like I told him like I was like, oh yeah this thing I told him the differences and I was on the screen, my daddy was out there and wasn't in my life. Put it for darien that I'm locked up. That's why I'm not in his life. So that's why not just tell the difference. And I told that, you know, and also what the difference is. No, I'm you know, I'm in contact still, you know what I'm saying with him? Like my daddy, like when he was out there, he wasn't a con with me and all that stuff. So you know, I just try to let him see the difference. You know of the note situation. You know, like I said like I know how you feel, you know growing up, your daddy ain't there for the moments and stuff like that for all the events and stuff like that. Okay. No, you just gotta understand you got to look at state that I made that led up to that. Well I let him know that that's why on the communication you know his mama talk about me you know you hear people talk about man you know stuff like that you know. Oh another thing you know what my you know I told I got identical twin you know so ah I told him that my brother we may look we may look alike but he's not a representation of. No because he's saying how when my brother had got out you know because you know me and my brother you know he was locked up on the same case and stuff like that. Different was that he took a police. Oh I let him know that you know because I guess you know you know you're seeing my brother no twin brother you know what I'm saying and he's saying how my brother was living and maybe talk no that could have possibly been me. So I had to let my son know that you know he's not a representation of what I'm saying. Like even though like because he's an introvert I'm saying. So like I said uh no sometimes you know it's hard to get you know words about you know sample certain stuff. He's an introvert and I tell him that you know so I just tried to tell him you know you ain't gotta look at me is no stranger and stuff like that you know and you know and it's not good you know the whole stuff in So I tried to tell him, you know, got to start being more vocal, you know what I'm saying? That's, you know, that's what leaders do. Okay. I see, I see new when they had a game on tv. Matter of fact, when they were playing dude, you know what I'm saying? Like when there was no getting blown out and stuff like that, I seen my son, uh you know, he, you know, he put his arms around the team, They called him in a huddle, You know what I'm saying? You know, the camera, the camera is always on them the day, you know what I'm saying? So when I seen that I've seen, you know, he, he had leadership. We're saying qualities, what I'm saying. It's capable of, you know, capability of being a leader. He was showing that, you know what I'm saying? I told him that when I talked to him. No, that's why, you know, so I can say I'd be open as possible. I told him myself. So that petition you mentioned, I'm not as familiar with all the legal processes. Um, what was that first word you're using the petition? You filed a clemency petition basically a party participle party. Okay, so when will you hear back on that? Well, uh, you know, the governor, no poster chair, uh here sign up on him. But you know, like I said, we got a new governor elected. So I got to wait on the new administration. Oh to make her hand because due to the uh oh an indiscretion out northern was the office. I don't know if you're familiar state governor and stuff like that. Yeah but my petition was in for you know it's been over 3.5 years. Typically they take like three years with people. Yeah I also left. Oh but they sent me a letter, they told me that I don't gotta file and know that I got to just wait on oh the new guard and make a decision. But you know like I said uh you know I've foreseen all this and not always you know his influence you know you know I'm saying get me out like people in here they always know look at my situation like you know it's one of the best sports movies ever. Yeah so you know so people always know say like I'm gonna be like a he got game, you know what I'm saying? But differences ah uh No the daddy was let out to get his son to go to a certain college you know but mi mind get out and make mine greater than you know make him great. I was going yeah what do you you know you've watched him you've seen him grow up from afar, you know what do you see in the future for darien I see your NBA great because he got all the qualities, you know got everything to live. No it's just it's the wheel. No but I already know you know like uh everything that's going on in his life you know it goes back to the childhood so I'm just trying to get the changes. No and you know and I know and I know he's missing me. You know what on the missing no peace in his life everything's great. You know it's just and selling at will. Yeah um just a couple more here go ahead go ahead but not good good. I was just gonna say um you know whatever you know regardless of the mistakes you've made in your life. I mean do you feel like darien makes you feel like your life has been validated and and worthwhile in a way. Yeah I feel like you know it's not validated. You know what I'm saying because you know I'm not there with you. My life will be validated when I'm reunited with you know what I'm saying? That's that's not fair of validation now in other words happening messed up. No I just feel like you know now like you know got to find a sense of purpose. Like I said you know what gets me going is you know I get to live I should live out my dreams my son because if I was to stay in school you know I could have did something with my life that's just how times said I was I'm still I can still play ball to this day and I'm 40 years old man, I can still dunk and everything. So I'll still be schooling these younger still you know, got a little athletic. Yeah. Yeah. But that's what that is. I get to live my dream through my son. How often do you get to play basketball in there? Well right now with the covid stuff going on? Like ain't nobody, I ain't no outside red jumping stuff like that. But other than that before, all that before the outbreak that take place in here and stuff like that, you know, like four days out the week. So for this is I've never interviewed somebody um in prison before. I mean you know, all I know is what I see in movies and tv. I mean what's it like like the day to day like you know, I mean how hard is it? I mean what are some of the challenges you're overcoming? Like are some of the things we see on television true where you've got a fear for your life, you know, so everything that goes on in prison that's on tv that do not goes on the days, I'm not saying that you know, you have an incident here and there or you know, even you know back in the days how you know prison with no uh rough bidding and you know, it was no movies, no data projection of it a little, but you know, but these days during time, this is basically now it's like a mental health facilities, you know what I'm saying? So it's on the individual, like the tools are here for a person to change, you know, it's on the individual to apply himself or herself, but we're gonna say himself, you know, but you know, it's on the individual, you know, the mayor himself to, you know, apply yourself and take advantage of, you know, the heart, uh huh resources, you know what I'm saying? Far education and the programs that are available, you know, in prison, you know, they're not all the best programs but you know, you know, but it's on the individual to want to change himself and like I said like, you know, being locked up, you're doing dead time. All you do is have time to reflect and look back and thank and change. Some people don't, some people do little regrets, you know, always living out moments because your life stopped. You know, whenever somebody get locked up and they don't get out and they've been gone for years and decades, like, like their normal mindset will be that age When they got locked up. So like me, I was 19 going on 20 when I got locked up. So my life that's that's where my life stopped. So I can't talk about Like how you like I can't talk about the 20s, the 30s, you know what I'm saying or the moments and this and that I just talked about what I was doing before I left, you know like I said, I'm updated to what's going on in society and stuff like that. We've got, you know updated with technology and everything. So I know if I was out there, I want to be a lost cause, you know, disorders like I don't know, it's oblivious. Don't know what's going on, stuff like that. So I know I was once a citizen at one time, you know, I'm not missing um a lot of stuff but at the same time, you know, places like this they can, it could turn a personal hot cold. No and I would generation like families time is like they was uh huh back in the days at the table no more like parents don't even know what the child is. You know what, what the child is going through or what they're doing, you know, you know, because you know due to working and stuff like that. You know what I can't say that I told Gary and uh you know, um you know sacrifice like, like you can take a rich kid and his parents don't billionaire and stuff like that. They provide the best life on the only thing that can provide. But even the rich kid will, you know, go through the depression state and be like you won't there and all that and all the, but I made sure you had this, you did that. You know what I'm saying? Like I had to work, You know what I'm saying? So the kids don't understand that until they're in this situation. So I just make sure, you know all I do, I just try to make sure I passed down my wisdom to my son. So that way he succeeds and his mistakes don't be bit mistakes. You know what I'm saying? Right? Right. It's mistakes. His mistakes should be like a parking ticket or something like that. What I'm saying or he didn't pay a bill that might, you know, like avoid all the, you know, the big mistakes that it costs personal life. Like my mistake and my interest cost me mine for right now. I just tried to get him temple. Yeah. You know like belief in itself. You know, and you know, because we believe in him, me and his mother. How hard. Number one fans, you know, I tried to tell them believe in us and believe in the dream like, like no, I'm not trying to tell them. You know, I believe I had this vision before I say I knew I was getting uh, a call. Well, I was, you know, I was, my vision was a visit, well, you know, do turtle Covid and all that. You have one minute remaining. All that changed. Yeah. Um, I know I wish I could have come in person to see you? Um, well I only have a couple more questions for you, but since we have time for one more call, so you want to call me back real quick. Yeah, I can call, I can call that. We're like that. Learn about the charges for now. There ain't nothing. Okay. Okay, go ahead and call that. Okay, perfect. Hey girl. Um, yeah, I was pretty much knowing my questions and I want to give you an opportunity to ask me some too just in case you have any. Um, I guess the last thing I'd ask is, uh, you know, you were talking about all the tools you have to change and things like that. I mean, yeah, farms of prison life. Do you feel like you have have changed? Yeah, of course I grew missile is spiritual and everything. I know for a fact that you know, uh, I'm different because now I know myself, you know, I didn't know myself, you know, back then, you know, I didn't have guidance. No, I have, I have that now. So now it's my job. You know what I'm saying to, you know? Uh, oh, the goddess. No, but I just feel like, you know right now, you know? Yeah, he's my son. No, that's what I feel like right now. But that, that'd be like my main focus because you know, I just seen fathers and sons athletes and you know, they lived the government, same cell in prison. I haven't witnessed that and that was always like a fear that I used to have in the early part of years. You know what I'm saying. But once I've seen that, you know, you know, he, you know, he know his mother was no was no typical, you know what I'm saying, A woman, you know what I'm saying and she made sure that he, you know, he he was successful and she, you know, she did a hell of a job. I give her all the priests. No, but yeah, but like I said, you know, I've seen father son and I used to be my fear and once that fear went away, you know, when I seen that you're getting too dirty that he was on, you know, my word has stopped dana. You know, then the new vision kicked in there had already been stored that I've seen. So I said, okay now now it's on the seat. Well, you know what the visions was, you know, when I start, you know, finding myself and you know, getting the spiritual lightning stuff like that, that's why all that when I when the, you know, I don't understand it back then, you know, so, so if it took, you know, it's something, you know, I just look at, you know, it took for my life, you know, maybe to save my son's life, get out of look at it and there has been right. I mean, you know, he's if you hadn't, you know, his life would have been different, obviously, if you've been out, maybe he wouldn't have been as motivated. I mean, it's it's, you know, it's just fascinating to think of it. Well, I know I would have been motivated, you know, because, you know, that was always the goal. Like once I know, saying that, you know, I ain't pushed the issue for the, you know, be successful. You know, I know for a fact, I would have pushed the issue my son, you know, I knew that part, I always knew that.