Welcome to another edition of Wral Triangle and two. I'm Mark Berg and he's Luis Fernandez, an absolutely loaded pod today, we will get to the news. Frank Wright fired his Panthers head coach Lewis. We're gonna keep it in the triangle though to start right off the jump. We saw some history in Durham on Saturday who knew, who knew Mike Elle's final game coaching the Duke Blue Devils. You were down on the sidelines at the game. What I want to ask you right from the jump. Was there any sentiment that he was leaving Saturday because you were actually covering this game? So, so here's the thing. Mark like this had been a topic that had been broached several times over the past few weeks. Essentially anytime a somewhat big time program had a job open. The question was, oh, will they look at Mike Elko because of what he's done at Duke over the past two years. Like it's been very impressive to go. What was it? Nine and four last year and then seven and five in the regular season this year after, you know, they had, they only won one AC C game in the two years before he got there and they just beating Pitt was their ninth win. So he, he had done a very good job and obviously that draws national attention. What he had been saying in all of his press conferences and things like that was Duke is my focus. Duke is my focus. Duke is my focus. I love, you know, I want to be here. I love being here. Um And there were a couple of opportunities before A and M um Michigan State Northwestern. Those were kind of the big ones. Um And, and he had said, no, he's focusing on Duke. Um But the, the A and M one always felt like if he were going to leave, it was going to be for that job. Um You know, because he was the defensive coordinator there for so long. Um Listening to the postgame press conferences being there asking questions um watching Senior Day, all of that there really was not, I, I don't think any kind of um overt kind of line that yes, he is going to leave. Everything that he talked about was very, we're focusing on the future, excited for the foundation. We're building these seniors are gonna be, you know, so important. I don't know if we're gonna have a more important senior class. It's gonna take several years, blah, blah, blah. So um not shocked but a little surprised, a little surprised. I think that's fair because coming out of that game. It looks like Mark Stoops was heading to Texas A and M and then the 11th hour they back out to hiring the Kentucky coach. So to go from one sec school to another that falls through and the sentiment on Twitter was like, you're gonna fire Jimbo Fisher, a coach who has won a national championship and pay, what is it? A 76 $77 million buy out to hire Mark Stoops. Now, Mike co comes back into the mix and it was just like, well, ok, I want to say one thing and take this outside of this current situation, Lewis for any fan out there watching whenever any coach gets asked about another job, he's not in a position to speak truthfully. I just want to be as crystal clear as I can and we'll see what Mike Elko says later today. We're recording this on Monday, November the 27th when he speaks at his introductory news conference as the head coach of the Texas A and M Aggies. Yeah. And you know, yeah, whenever you ask, uh, it's one of those things where you have to ask coaches, right? We have to do it as journalists, we have to ask the question, your name is being thrown around all this stuff, but you know, the answers don't really mean anything you're seeing that you've seen that every year you saw, you've seen it this year with Oregon State's head coach. Heading to Michigan State. Um It, it's just kind of the business of it all. I think what's, what's sad, you know, what kind of is the, the kind of gross underbelly of, of college athletics, especially college football. You know, you see like in one of one of the best moments of the postgame press conferences after this pit win for Duke after senior day was Jalen Calhoun, a five year player at Duke, a wide receiver. He was just the 4th, 4th player in Duke history to get 3000 receiving yards after the game. He was asked, uh you know, you gave Mike Elko a very big hug. There was an embrace after the game. What did that moment mean to you? What has all this meant to you? And he was very like he, he said, you know, I I love that man like he completely changed my life. You know, I know that we're gonna be communicating, you know, in the future for many, many, many, many years. Like there was obvious emotion. He had to take a second and pause because he, you could see the emotion starting to come on his face. Um And then 24 hours. Elko is 24 48 hours later, Elko is arriving in college station at 3 a.m. You know, that's the I I I'm not, I'm not trying to, you know, pocket watch anyone, right? I if if you offered me, we don't and we don't know how much money Mike Elko is, is set to make yet at A and M that those details have not been released. Um But I'm assuming based on what J Fisher's contract was, I'm assuming it's gonna be, you know, a lot of zeros. Uh and that, that's, that's my thing. Right? Is if you were to offer me that kind of money, I'm sure I would do just about anything you wanted me to do like, but, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a little gross. Um Well, here's the flip side of that though too. Louis your litmus test is, can you go beat Texas A and M, can you go beat Georgia right now with Kirby Smart's doing LSU is not far behind with Brian Kelly and then, oh, Texas is going to be out for blood because you skipped town on leaving the big 12 a decade ago. Texas is coming into the SEC. So that's what Mike Elko is walking into. And I'll talk about Mike Elko and then say, hey, where's Duke? Go from here? Lewis. We cut our teeth in Knoxville, Tennessee, right? So we're covering the post Butch Jones era. He gets fired. Uh, 2017 starts out four and six doesn't have a win in the SEC, which is almost impossible with the recruits Tennessee could get. And then Tennessee was gonna hire Greg Schiano and that fell through in the 11th hour and then it leads to Jeremy Pruitt, different circumstances. I understand. But it reminds me a bit of that of, well, it looked like stoops was gonna be the guy and now Elko is walking in place where he has experience. But, you know, I wish him all the success at Texas A and M but that's gonna be awfully tough when you're going to be measured by. Can you go beat Nick Saban? Can you go beat Kirby Smart and the best of the best in the SEC? Yeah. And that's like, I, I think it's a good hire by Texas A and M like Mike Elko, I think is going to have a lot of success at Texas A and M. Like, I think that's very clear, like the job that he's done at Duke, he's like a CEO type coach where he, he's a perfect college coach in that he understands the image, he understands how to build from the ground up, how to make everything, you know, kind of sing together, how to harmonize everything. Like that's what he did at Duke and, and you know, from the strength and conditioning all the way up to the actual results on the field. Like what, what, what was happening at Duke is very impressive. So I think he's gonna have a lot of success. It just, it's, it's, it's a bit of a bummer when you go from the emotion of like a senior day to this. And that's what it's always gonna be and that's why also side note, if you ever complain about players leaving exhibit a as to why players should be allowed to transfer and make money and all that stuff. But it just, it's, it's, it's sad. Um And I guess the question becomes like, what, what is next for Duke Football? Yeah, I, who could they even go out and get? And right now it's like I was trying to put a list together in advance of the show coaching carousel, which is one of my favorite things. It's tough because at Duke, you wanna kind of create what they have in basketball on a football level, but it's keeping up with the Joneses, not just in the AC C, but in all of college football where you have other schools that just have more money, more resources, uh, alumni base and so forth. I liked what Elko was building. We'll see what he ends up making. But it's just like I'm kind of bummed with this news in all honesty because coming off a nine and four season seven and five, like he took over a team. This is no knock on David Cutcliffe tenure because he was very successful. I Elko took over a team that had lost 13 consecutive AC C games and then in the same season leads his team to a nine and four year and wins AC C coach of the year last year. I liked what he was building and now Duke has to go back to the drawing board. Yeah, I mean, it, listen, like, let's, we've gotta be real, you know, it's the difference between A and M job and a Duke job. Like, yeah, that's sec, that's a, uh, you know, the team that has a lot of money to throw around. A lot of big boosters and things like that. You're in the middle of Texas, you're recruiting there like that. That, that's, that is very clearly like the better job um on paper. But it's, it's also just, it's, it's tough because like what is, what is Duke football wanna be? What are their goals? I think maybe, you know, even looking like internally and seeing if Kevin Johns would um be promoted from OC to head coach. I think that could be something. But also, you know, you have to look at, you know, who is Elko gonna bring over to A and M uh both coaching wise and transfer portal wise? You're in my brain, you're in my brain because the question I have is what happens with Riley Leonard, probably your best player. So that's, yeah, and there, there, there are going to be um really good players and this is, and this will be the last thing I just, I want to throw out there about this Duke thing is one thing that Elko said after the game was he, he was talking about how important the senior class was to what Duke football was doing has done. And he said, you know, this group of seniors, you know, that have stuck, stuck it out the two years that I've been here. Like, it's very rare that, you know, and he's like, in this day and age players go everywhere they leave, they don't stick together. This group has stuck together just the juxtaposition of, of that with leaving. It's, I get it once again. If you offered me the bag, I would assuredly take it. But it's just, it's one of those things you have to reckon with in college football. It's gross. Yeah, I was sitting in front of a former Duke football player during the game. Um and he was saying we were both talking where it's like at that point on Saturday, it was like, oh, Elko is not gonna go to A and M and he wins eight games a year and takes this team to a bowl game. He'll be revered in Durham and now he moves on. And what Riley Leonard does a player that has some sort of NFL future. I don't know if it would be for a few seasons. He could be a backup if he can establish and do a prospect. He has an NFL future. Does he go now? Does he come back to Duke? Does he transfer with Elko? Does he transfer to another school? Keep your eye on that Lewis? We need to keep this rolling though. Yeah. Um Let's, let's go ahead and go from one program that we're like, oh man, I don't know what their future is to another kind of similar situation when you just look at what was a uh incredibly disappointing result for UN C and an incredibly, just cathartic, beautiful moment for NC state. Um What, what were your initial thoughts on, on what's going on on here? Mark, I know there's a specific kind of question you wanted to ask. Let me say this. Uh and the question we'll have is what's more likely Matt Brown retiring from UN C or Dave do leaving NC State for another school. Uh If I have to answer this, I think both will be back in the triangle. Uh If I had to answer though, I'd say Dave Jordan getting poached because Mac Brown at the age of 72 did some research, Miami's Howard Schnellenberger, he coached, leave 77. So I think there's some gas left in the tank with Mac Brown. Um We'll talk some about the game Lewis, but here, here's where I'm gonna land is, you can be frustrated that the tar heels lose four of their last six games this season. Virginia put out the recipe of how to beat this UN C football team dominating time of possession. You say, well, the offense doesn't do its part. You're not lighting up the scoreboard with Drake May and Tess Walker or Marion Hampton NC State had the ball for more than 40 minutes on Saturday. So in three of the fours tar heels losses dominated in time of possession. Clemson had the ball for more than 38 minutes. Virginia had the ball for more than 37 minutes. If your defense is out on the field, almost twice. As long as your offense, you're not gonna win the football game so we can talk to Matt Brown and the offense not doing its part, the more serious conversation we need to have. I am not calling for Gene Chizik job, but I'm taking a long look, Lewis on what was Swiss Cheese defense last year? And what was again, Swiss Cheese defense on the back half of the 2023 season? That's, that's where we start this conversation. Yeah, I mean, so time of possession I think is a little bit of like a causation versus correlation type thing. I think it's, it's part of the reason. I don't think it's like the whole reason. Um Yeah, I mean, like they just got beat up like, like I don't like you would see, just got beat up like there's, you know, I if you isolate the NC State game, um Matt Brown said they didn't practice in pads the week of what are you doing? I understand there are injuries but like this is, it's one of those games where you have to really, you know, strap on your big boy. Pants and get ready to, to get in a rock fight. Like that's, that's what these type of college football rivalries are. There's toxicity, there's animosity, pe the people on either side just do not like each other. And that's just, that's part of what makes college football really cool is that you have those type of, of really close rivalries. Um, I, I just think ii, I don't know. I, I mean, I look at what you n see the, the UN C had a lot of questions that had to answer coming into the season as a football program, right? Their toughness was questioned, the defense was questioned, their ability to finish games, you know, not play down to opponents, all those things. And in the first half of the season, they answered a lot of those questions. They were tougher, they battled in the trenches, the defense was better, they were able to finish off opponents, they didn't play down in competition all this stuff. And then the second half of the season, it just all fell apart and they reverted back to what they had been and, you know, you have to give NC State so much credit. Like the coaching job that Dave Dorn has done to Dave Dorman, Robert and I, Tony Gibson, what, what they have done to essentially make the most out of what's there on offense to really just, it feels like take every ounce of talent out of those players. Bring them together and, you know, you, you have to have a common, common enemy. And if there's one thing I can tell you, it's that when NC State and UN C play each other in football, there's so much animosity from the NC State players towards UN C players. And if you do not match that kind of animosity, it's the kind of thing that's just gonna get your butt kicked just straight up. Um, yeah, I mean, Lewis Brendan Armstrong, this is a bit of a hyperbole. He looked like Tim Tebow on Saturday night and it's like basic defensive philosophy, you lose, contain, you lose the game a lot of plays where it's like, where is your backside pursuit to fill on a play where certain players over, pursue an offensive player cuts back and there's just no one there and there's just no one there. So again, I go back to, ok, what's the recipe to beat UN C this year? Three of the four losses dominated in time of possession? And I get that time of possession doesn't always tell the story of the game, but you can ask any defensive player, hey, what's it like when you have a running back that can move the chains, sustain drives and keep your offense in the field, you can chill on the sideline, get your oxygen, your Gatorade, get your legs back and you can get, get to go back on the field and the Tar heels, defense is stuck on the field for twice as long as the offense is out there. Now, the offense is part of that too. The offense is part of that too. But that to me, Virginia put the recipe out there for the rest of the country to say, hey, if you're gonna beat this high flying tar heels team that can put up points and light up the scoreboard. Here's how you go about doing it and look 39 what was it? 39 to 20 final score. That wasn't even close. It was an a absolute butt kicking Lewis. It was not reflective of an absolute domination by NC state. Give NC State credit. Now, uh we're looking at this on the screen, the question on the screen, what say you Luis Fernandez, Matt Brown retiring Dave Dorn leaving, which is more likely. So, um I don't think Mac Brown is gonna retire this season. Neither do I, you know, I, I just, I think there are gonna be changes, there need to be changes to the coaching staff, um Interpret that how you will. But um I, I don't think that to me, Matt Brown is there until he doesn't want to be there. That's just I think the situation and then, and Dave Doran, he has found like this really beautiful kind of niche in college football where I think he's at a program that you the goal is to elevate it to the point where it gets to the AC C championship game. Right. But it's a fan base that is passionate and it is a, a place where you can have consistent success. Like the fact that he's able to consistently get the 789 win total. I think that's huge. We really cannot emphasize enough if NC State were to win its bowl game against whoever it might be. That's 10 wins. That's only happened once in NC state football history. That would be massive. Um, a legitimate 10 wins too. And look, I don't the pot but they don't, they don't, they don't do the holiday bowl 10 wins anymore. I will say that. But, um, so II, I don't think, I think the only if, if they were to say, if you were to say, be, if there would be a situation where Florida State, like, let's say, beats up on Louisville in the AC C championship game for Louisville drops below NC State in the college football playoff ranking. Uh Florida State goes to the playoffs and then NC State is the number one non playoff team outside of that. And so N State goes to the Orange Bowl and then if they were to win the Orange Bowl, then you may have people starting to look at Dave Dorn from that perspective. He said before, he's had opportunities people have been interested in him. Um I don't know, I just, I, I think Dave Doran's kind of happy where he is honestly. And I, I think that he's, that the program, the culture of NC State is Dave Dorn like who he is, all of that kind of stuff. Um That, you know, hand in the dirt grit, like all of that kind of that, that's who NC State is. And, and they've had a lot of success with that and, you know, now really the, the next thing for them is just to try and take that next step. So, um we'll see if they can do it, we'll see if they can do it. And then this question is a push for me. Mark Bergen. Ok. Ok. I, uh I would probably say, I don't think either will happen, but more likely I'd say Dorn leaving. I saw some sentiment that where it's like, oh Mike Mac Brown might retire. It's not his choice. He's under contract through 2028. So, unless something substantial changes, like if the Texas A and M fans were concerned that Mark Stoops was the best that they could get in there. An elite program if you either forced Matt Brown out or you, or he retired, however, he would leave. Who are you getting? Who are you bringing in? So it's the same thing that's going on with Duke where you're like, OK, what's this program? Is it a stepping stone? Is it the main one? There's a lot there? Um Can I ask you one more? Thing with, with North Carolina Drake. May t Walker. Do they play in the bowl games? What would you advise them to do? Because I think Drake go ahead. Good. So I think Drake, if I, if I were advising Drake, I would say don't play in the ball game too. Me too. He, he almost, I mean, he kind of hurt his ankle there at the end of the game. Like it's, he's probably gonna be a top three pick. I would not play in the bowl game. Fire him. Um, as, uh, for, for Te Walker, I don't know if T Walker is gonna leave, like he's got one more year of eligibility. I don't know if he's high enough on like I, I think T Walker's situation will be something to watch. Um, but yeah, you think you can be back in Chapel Hill maybe? I think it's a possibility transitioning here from college to pros breaking news today, Lewis our final topic of the show, the Panthers fire head coach Frank Wright after a terrible start, only one win in Bryce Young's rookie season. Uh I think the question is, is what happens next for the Panthers. So is GM Scott Fitterer next after the end of the season Panthers had the lowest winning percentage since David Tepper took over in 2019. And the guy I would try to go out and get Lions offensive coordinator, Ben Johnson to try to get Bryce Young, right uh, in year two. So that's how I would approach this. But what did you make of the news today hearing that the Panthers had fired Frank Wright? I mean, like, WW what are, what are, what are the Panthers doing? Like, what is the state of the franchise? I don't like, you mean? I agree Ben Johnson would be a great hire, but why would Ben Johnson want to go to Carolina right now? You know, like, I mean, like, seriously, it's like a, a matter of like, so the best coaches, the best offensive minds because you're assuming you want to hire someone who's an offensive mind, that's what you already tried to do. Supposedly with Frank Wright, like, I'm sure there are gonna be a lot of situations that are gonna be better than Carolina's. So, unless David Tepper is just throwing the back at them, plus you look at the fact that David Tepper has fired three coaches already to mid season and back to back seasons as well last year with Matt rule. This is not the premier league. Like you don't just fire coaches all the time. I mean, like does Frank should Frank Reich have been coaching once we were like 11 games in? No, I think it was pretty clear that it just wasn't gonna work like they were that bad. I think it was really telling when he took back the play calling responsibilities and it was like, oh boy, I I just, I don't, I don't know, I don't wanna like pile on the Carolina Panthers fans and we have plenty of coverage on Panthers playbook and 99 9 the fan and all that stuff. But like, it's dark times in Charlotte. I think you have to evaluate what you do with the GM, you ride it out this season and whoever you bring in you need to get right because you have to hit home on Bryce Young. You've got Caleb Williams Drake may gonna be top picks you traded, what would have been that pick this year? And you don't want to have to restart this process all over again. We focus on young rookie quarterback struggling. We talked about it a lot and comparing him to the great season CJ Strout is having and now maybe you can even say that Tommy devito is having a better season than Bryce Young, but it's, it's more about, it is more so about coaching and the personnel you surround them with and coaching and development. And if it's not Frank Wright, you have to get this right to salvage Bryce Young. That's my point and that's, and that's, I think that's the key is you don't want to be the franchise that ruined Bryce Young's career. And I'm now, I'm not saying Bryce Young has been perfect, but like, I don't know how many, how many quarterbacks young quarterbacks, especially with drive in the system right now and with you there. Roster doesn't look good, you know, I still go back to you. How did you look at this wide receiver and core and say, yep, that's good. Do you know who was on the board when they picked? Uh, Jonathan Mingo? Lay it on me. Tank Dell. I I'm not, I'm not trying to say like, hey, look at the Houston Texans, how much better they are the Carolina fan. But I'm like, oh, what are you doing? Like, I just, it is a dark time and I don't know what the heck like David temper, man. Like he's been with new owners in sports a lot where they're multibillionaires, they've had success in business and they do it differently than predecessors have in the sports that I have and they're gonna do it different and you're getting the reality of you try to put a patch in a band aid on what is a deep, deep flesh wound and just what I'm trying to figure out is what the Panthers need to do to start rowing in the right direction. I don't know. And I honest, I don't know. I think that's a great place to rap because if we don't know, it's like people are, the last thing I want to be on David Tepper is that there is this notion that if you are a genius in one field that genius carries over into other fields and it is such a logical fallacy and it frustrates me to no end. And I do not like when owners are like that because that's what ends up happening here. You hire, hire football people that know football to do football things. That's the last thing I'm gonna say Louis. That's an absolutely great place to wrap. I think this was our best episode yet of Triangle and two. Go leave us a five star review. Apple and Stitcher. If you're on youtube, tap the subscribe button on the 99 9, the fan youtube page a lot coming from WRL Sports. A lot of news out there. I want to thank the listeners and viewers for watching. Uh Anything else I'm missing here, Lewis. Uh What a day, man. What, what a day for Luis Fernandez, I'm Mark Bergen. Thank you for watching WRL Triangle at two. We'll see you next time until then. Take care. It's so long. Everybody.